The Cozy Dragon's Hoard of Dice

RPG Discussion Focusing on the Human Element


On MinMaxing and Table Comfort

This is, perhaps a digression from the principle thesis of this blog, but after a recent Contested Roll episode starring Brennan Lee Mulligan and Jasmine Bhullar, I wanted to take a moment to discuss the issue. I do think that the points raised by both people are valid, but I have a different perspective.

I could, quite easily, have gotten into the comments. I did in fact do so – but the place for a person with a roleplaying blog to discuss the question of MinMaxing is not within the comments on a YouTube video, and so I’m bringing the problem to you. Yay!

Principally the issue is this: playing Dungeons and Dragons or indeed, most ‘crunchy’ roleplaying game systems in a mechanically optimized manner is a skill. It is not a universal skill, and it is not the only skill that can be used to make a roleplaying game fun, but it is one that can get a lot of attention. This can lead to some stressors within a table.

In theory, the different classes and builds in a game of Dungeons and Dragons (used here as the example as it is the example used in the video), have differing strengths. If you build a rogue for instance, you are not building a paladin – and your character cannot do what a paladin can do. Similarly however, you may be the only party member who can disarm traps and disable locks. You may decide to focus on these skills. Another party member may decide to focus on diplomatic and social skills. A spellcaster in the party may decide to focus on utility magic.

None of these abilities are useful if the game balance is exclusively focused on combat. And, because combat is for better or for worse the principle focus of the rules sets, this is where most MinMax optimized builders put their focus.

In a healthy game, communication can smooth out these rough edges. A dungeon crawling adventure may give party members all a chance to shine; a dungeon master can observe the skills and interests of each party member and provide those opportunities. But if a session – or a series of sessions – is simply repeated combat, over and over, this is less interesting to the party members who are not combat-optimized.

“Everyone in the game should get a chance to show off their specialties” is a pretty good philosophy for encounter design, but can be difficult for new game masters. In a striking number of popular RPGs, combat or combat-relevant rules make up 2/3rds of the game books.

So, when the ‘roleplayer’ in the party complains that the party is unbalanced by a Min/Maxer, often the complaint is not ‘I am not useful in combat’, but rather ‘I am not getting attention’. This is not the whinging complaint that it initially appears to be; the opportunity to shine is one that should be extended to all players to the extent that they desire it, and to the game master. This may not happen in every session, but like all statistics, over the course of time, it should even out.

This is yet another example of a good reason to hold a session zero. A game master may have specific ideas about the campaign that they would like to run, and should communicate these. Players should also communicate – in their case, expressing what they would like to see in the game. The GM is not beholden to these requests, but should bear them in mind; the players are not forced to change to what the GM wishes to run, but finding areas where everyone’s wish lists are at least considered is a mark of a healthy compromise.

There are times when either communication breaks down, or other factors mean that this kind of compromise is impossible. There are some players of various RPGs who cannot find other play groups, or who are socially pressured to engage. There is no easy solution for this, save but to say ‘this is a game, and we are here to have fun’, and then to build from that point.

The other common complaint about Min/Maxing that was not addressed in the Contested Roll video is the Min/Maxers who use ‘dump stats’, and then don’t reflect them. If you have elected to be the mightiest of strong warriors, but have chosen to have a room temperature intellect score or charisma, remember that you’re not the most charming or suavest belle at the ball.

I liked this video – I think it’s important to have conversations where we address common stereotypes about the table and break down whether those archetypes themselves are problems, or whether they are manifestations of broader issues. But I do think it is worth mentioning that ‘get good’ is not always the solution; an optimized character does what you want them to do. It behooves everyone at the table – the GM included – to have a frank and open and ongoing discussion about what that constitutes.

You’ll feel better for having done it.



One response to “On MinMaxing and Table Comfort”

  1. This is a very good point: I’ve long thought there should be good example guidelines of what various classes are expected to do at specific points in their career, possibly with example character builds. Not minmaxed/optimized, but ‘this is what we expect the *average* fighter to do at level ten’. This would also help game design, I think.

    That way when I’m building a character and thinking of what do I bring to the party, I can check against the included examples and go “yeah, I might need to focus a bit more” or “I might need to tone this down a bit”.

    I’ve seen examples both ways in Living Greyhawk; There was a group 100% focused on combat with an unpleasant nickname based of sucking all the fun out of a game. I did find it fun to play with them once in a while, particularly in adventures that were not particularly well written anyway, but if they joined your average table, both sides would get frustrated very quickly as they wanted to teleport straight to the end of the adventure using scrying spells, and nuke the room with a carefully choreographed sequence of moves.

    However, several times I also played with characters that were so badly built they were annoying to play with. There was a sequence of rogue/fighters who thought they were tanks, and would run up and get themselves in trouble when they demonstrated that no, leather armour is not the same as full plate, and you don’t have nearly as many hit points as a fighter of your level (Oddly, a plurality of the least enjoyable people I ever played with liked this build, no idea why.) In another case they were a cleric 2/wizard 2/fighter 2. Which means while everyone else has 3rd level spells they have 1st level spells. So they can’t cast useful spells, and they can’t fight as they don’t have the attack bonuses or hit point to either deal damage or take it.

    My rules of thumb is that you should look at the most obvious character in the book, say a straight classed fighter with the most obvious options, say sword and shield. If you are supposed to be on the front lines you shouldn’t be noticeably worse then that character over the long term. At least in games where you are a skilled party trying to do a mission; everyone should have a role like in a heist movie, and be good at that job. Don’t have to be perfect, but you’d never see a serious heist movie where the wheelman gets into traffic accidents every third scene because he also tried to be the face and the gunman and the sneaky dude. (Unless you are playing Fiasco or Toon, in which case ‘wheelman who can’t drive’ might be valid, or Kobalds Ate My Baby, where it is damn near mandatory).

    That said, if you are also way MORE powerful then the most obvious path, I would check in with the other players and possibly broaden your focus a bit so you aren’t showing them up or sitting board with no skills when it isn’t the ONE THING you can do.

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About Me

A long-time roleplaying gamer, I like to focus on the elements that make fantasy worlds come to life – taverns and inns, fairs (and fairy fairs) and fetes, art and stagecraft, and lost treasures that may or may not be magical. I write supplements available for purchase at the Dungeon Master’s Guild.